扎卡里亚：那么，我们这就开始这场正式访谈了。
温总理：开始访谈之前，我想让你知道我会用发自内心的话回答你的问题，也就是说，对你提出的所有问题，我都将有一说一。我经常对人说，有时候我可能没有说出我的想法，但只要我说出来，那么我说的都是真实的。我想你正在采访的是一位政治家，同时他也是一个普通人物。我习惯对话而不乐于长篇大论，所以你可以随时打断我，提出你的问题。这无疑会让我们的对话更加愉快。
扎卡里亚：我期待这次谈话的机会，首先我要感谢您给我们这次访谈机会并让我们感到荣幸。我要问的第一个问题，我想也是许多人想知道的。您怎么看当前这场影响美国的金融危机？您是否因此而认为美国模式有许多我们刚刚才意识到的缺陷？
温总理：我是6年前担任中国总理一职的，在此之前我是副总理。在副总理的任上，我经历了另一场金融危机不过发生在亚洲。亚洲金融危机爆发后，中国采取了积极的财政政策并决定人民币不贬值。通过这一举措，我们成功地克服了诸多困难。不过，现在美国的问题是由次级信贷危机引发，随后房利美和房地美出现问题，雷曼兄弟集团、美林证券、美国国际集团也相继陷入困境。这些大型的投资银行和保险公司都出现了系统性问题。
这让我感到发生在美国的这场危机产生的影响可能波及全球。不过，面对这场危机，我们也必须认识到今天的世界不同于1930年代人们生活的那个世界。因此，我们这一次应当携手共赴危机。如果美国的财政和经济体系出了问题。那么其影响不仅在美国，而且在中国，在亚洲，乃至整个世界都会感受得到。
我注意到，美国政府为防止一个孤立的危机演变成系统性危机采取了一系列的政策和措施。我希望这些措施和步骤能够取得良效。我也希望这些措施和步骤不仅能够拯救美国的几个大型金融公司，也能帮助稳定美国的经济并确保美国的经济将来能够平衡发展。
扎卡里亚：如果反观中国经济，您知道，现在有许多人认为中国经济将出现大幅下滑。许多人预测说中国经济增速可能放缓至7％。您认为这是否会发生？果真如此，我想知道您认为在中国将会出现什么样的后果？
温总理：是的，的确如此。中国经济以年均9.6%的增速增长了30年。这是一个奇迹。特别是在2003至2007年间，中国获得了两位数的经济增长，而同时，消费物价指数（CPI）年均增长不足2％。可以公正地说中国经济实现了相对稳定和快速的经济增长。这段时间，中国一直积极地采取调控措施。我们之前的考虑是防止快速的经济增长变得过热，防止较快的物价上涨演变成明显的通货膨胀。不过，情况很快发生了变化。我指的是美国的次贷危机，以及随之而来的严重的金融震荡。
结果，我们看到外部需求下滑，中国的国内需求在短时间内也几乎难以飞快增长。因此，中国经济确实有衰退的危险。在这种背景下，我们必须重新调整中国的宏观经济政策，以适应外部的变化。对我们来说最重要的是，实现经济增长、抑制价格上涨和控制通货膨胀之间的平衡。此外，还要保持创造就业机会和抑制通货膨胀之间的平衡。我知道实现所有这些领域的平衡是非常、非常困难的。我们需要采取灵活、谨慎的宏观经济政策来适应外部的变化，以在保持通货膨胀低水平的同时确保快速、稳定的经济增长。
扎卡里亚：如果美国陷入严重衰退，您认为贵国还能继续增长吗？
温总理：今年上半年，或者看看今年前八个月的统计数据，我们可以看到我们已经成功地做到了这一点。美国一旦衰退肯定会对中国经济产生影响。我们知道，10年前中美贸易额只有1026亿美元，然而今天这一数字飙升至3020亿美元，实际上增加了1.5倍。美国需求减少肯定会影响中国的出口。美中两国的财政紧密相连。如果美国的金融部门出现什么问题，我们就会担心中国资本的安全。这就是为什么从一开始我就明确表示，美国的金融问题不仅关系美国本国的利益，也关系到中国乃至整个世界的利益。
扎卡里亚：换一种说法，就是我们相互依存。中国是美国短期国库债券的最大持有者，据估计，价值接近1万亿美元。这让一些美国人感到不安。您能否打消他们的顾虑，保证中国永远不会利用这种地位作为某种形式的武器？
温总理：我已经说过，我们相信美国的实体经济部门仍然基础坚实，特别是高科技和基础工业。现在问题出现在虚拟经济部门。不过如果这一问题得到合理解决，那么美国仍有可能稳定本国经济。中共政府殷切希望，美国能够尽快稳定本国经济和金融。我们也希望看到美国能够持续发展，因为这将有利于中国。当然，我们担心中国在美资本的安全。不过，我们相信美国是一个值得信赖的国家。特别是在这种困难时期，中国一直向美国伸出援助之手。我们确信，这种援助将有助于稳定全球经济和金融，有助于防止全球经济和金融体系出现巨大震荡。我相信现在合作是头等大事。
扎卡里亚：我是否可以问问您，中国在更广泛意义上的角色？许多人将中国视作一个现实的超级大国。他们困惑，为什么中国不更加积极地参与政治解决诸如达尔富尔问题、伊朗及其核抱负问题？人们希望，中国能够成为--用时任美国副国务卿罗伯特·佐利克的话来说--一个负责任的利益攸关者；希望中国能够更积极地参与处理世界政治问题，但到目前为止中国表现并不积极。您会如何评价这种情况？
温总理：回答这个问题之前，我需要首先纠正你提问中的措辞。中国现在并不是一个超级大国。尽管中国有13亿人口，尽管自改革开放以来，中国连年取得相对快速的经济和社会发展，但中国仍然存在着不同地区之间、城乡之间的发展不平衡问题。中国仍然是一个发展中国家。我们仍然有8亿农民生活在农村，数千万人没有脱贫。事实上，中国还有6000多万城乡居民依靠基本生活补贴为生。而且，每年我们需要为2300万左右的城市失业者和大约2亿进城务工的农民担责。我们需要不懈地努力，认真解决这些问题。我们需要做大量的工作来解决我们自身的问题。中国不是一个超级大国。这正是我们需要集中精力专注于自己的发展、努力改善人民生活的原因。
扎卡里亚：不过，中共政府确实可以向苏丹政府、伊朗政府或缅甸政府施压，让他们冲释高压政策。贵国和这三国都有关系。
温总理：这牵涉到你的第二个问题。实际上，中国是国际社会中一个坚持正义的国家。我们从不拿原则做交易。以你刚刚提及的达尔富尔问题为例。中国一直主张解决达尔富尔问题需要采用双重路线。中国是第一批向达尔富尔派遣维和部队的国家，也是第一个向苏丹提供援助的国家。此外，我们还努力敦促苏丹各方领导人进行接触，以尽快找到一个和平解决问题的方案。
扎卡里亚：您是否认为，如果伊朗得到核武器将会给整个世界带来威胁？你认为世界应当如何作为来努力避免出现这种可能？
温总理：我们不支持伊朗出现核武器。我们认为伊朗有权基于和平目的开发利用核能。不过，伊朗开发核能的努力必须遵守国际原子能机构的保证条款，而且伊朗不应该发展核武器。中国在伊朗核问题上的立场是鲜明的。我们希望围绕这一问题展开对话予以解决，希望我们能够敦促伊朗当局放弃发展核武器的想法，承担国际个原子能机构的保障条款责任。尽管如此，我们希望能够利用和平谈判来实现这一目的，而不是肆意诉诸武力或以武力相威胁。这就像处理两个人之间的关系。如果一方试图将另一方逼上绝路，那么可能适得其反。这将无助于解决问题。我们的目的是解决问题，而不是尝试将另一个逼入困境的话，那么结果反而达不到。那将无助于解决问题。我们的想法是解决问题，而不是加剧紧张态势。
在这里，我也向你提出一个问题：难道你不认为中国在解决朝核问题上付出的努力，以及我们在这一问题上采取的立场，实际上已经帮助朝鲜半岛的局势一天一天好转吗？当然，我知道仍然需要时间寻求一个完全、彻底的朝核问题解决方案，在此基础上帮助实现东北亚的安全和稳定。不过，我想强调的一点是，我们采取的方式和付出的努力，证明在方向上是正确的。
扎卡里亚：我很荣幸您问我这样一个问题。总理阁下，我想告诉您，中国在朝鲜问题上的努力一直为美国和全世界所赞赏。当然这更使人们希望中国能用与在朝鲜同样有效的方式积极参与其他领域，因为我们从中看到了效果。
温总理：我们从几年来的六方会谈中获得了不少经验和教训。六方会谈取得进展也得益于六方之间的密切合作。
扎卡里亚：我可以问您有关另外一组可能的会谈吗？达赖喇嘛此前表示，他现在似乎愿意接受中国统治西藏，接受在西藏施行社会主义制度。他所寻求的是文化自治和一定程度的政治自治。这组会谈显然局限于（流亡）藏人和中共政府之间的较低层次上。您为什么不利用您的权力和谈判技巧亲自处理这一问题呢--为中国人民，当然还包括生活在中国的西藏人民的利益计，您或胡锦涛主席可以直接同达赖喇嘛进行谈判，一劳永逸地解决这一问题。
温总理：我们和达赖喇嘛的问题并不是一般意义上的民族、宗教或文化问题，而是一个关系到是捍卫中国的统一还是容许分裂国家活动的重大原则问题。在对待达赖喇嘛问题上，我们必须采取两条路径。一方面，我们承认达赖喇嘛是一个宗教领袖，他在西藏、特别是在信奉佛教的地区有一定的影响力。但另一方面，我们也不洗认识到，他不是一个普通的宗教人士。达赖喇嘛建立的所谓流亡政府实行神权统治。这个所谓的政府的目标是将西藏从中国分裂出去。
达赖喇嘛在世界许多地方不停地鼓吹所谓“大西藏” 自治思想。实际上，达赖喇嘛追求的这种所谓“自治”的真实目的是利用宗教干涉政治。他们企图将所谓的“大西藏”从祖国分裂出去。许多美国人并不知道这个所谓的“大西藏”到底有多大。实际上，它包括西藏、四川、云南、青海和甘肃，共计5省区。其覆盖面积占中国领土的四分之一。
几十年来，我们对达赖喇嘛的政策一直没有改变：即只要达赖喇嘛愿意承认西藏是中国领土不可分割的一部分，只要达赖喇嘛放弃分裂活动，我们愿意同他本人或他的代表进行接触和谈判。
现在，谈判的结果取决于他是否有诚意。1950年代西藏事件[叛乱]之后，中央政府的最高领导人，邓小平先生也会见过达赖喇嘛的代表。
因此，我认为问题并不在于我是否同达赖喇嘛进行接触。关键是这种接触和谈判的效力问题。
我们希望他能用切实的行动显示诚意，打破僵局。
扎卡里亚：您希望看到达赖喇嘛采取什么样的行动来显示他的诚意？
温总理：实际上，我已经明确表示过，我们观察任何人，包括达赖喇嘛，我们不仅察其言，也观其行。
他的诚意就是放弃分裂活动。
扎卡里亚：之后，您会和他会面吗？
温总理：到那时，一切有赖于形势的发展。当然，谈判可以继续，根据谈判的进展，我们也可以考虑提升谈判级别。
扎卡里亚：温总理，正如您所说的，贵国9.5%的经济增速持续了30年，这是历史上经济增速最快的国家。如果有人过来问您，“中国作为一个发展中国家的成功模式是什么？”您将如何回答？中国成功的关键是什么？是一种什么模式？
温总理：这个问题很好回答。你可以想想这个事情——大约30年前，为什么中国不能像随后几十年那样快速发展？我想这归功于我们在1978年提出的改革开放政策。这就是中国成功的关键。改革开放政策大大解放了中国的生产力。
我们还有一个重要的思想：社会主义也可以实行市场经济。
扎卡里亚：人们会认为这是自相矛盾的。你们实行市场经济，即市场配置资源，而在社会主义制度下，一切都要集中计划。你们是如何让两者相得益彰的？
温总理：我们经济政策的完整规划是，在政府的宏观经济指导和调控下，充分发挥各种市场力量在配置资源方面的基础作用。
过去30年里，我们获得一条重要的经验，即确保充分发挥看得见的手和看不见的手在调控各种市场力量方面的作用。
如果你熟悉亚当·斯密的经典著作，你就知道他有两部著名作品。一部是《国富论》，另一部是关于道德和伦理的书。前者更多地探讨的是“看不见的手”，即市场的力量。后者探讨的是社会公平和正义。在这后一本书里，亚当· 斯密强调政府在国民财富再分配方面发挥调控作用的重要性。
如果一个国家的大部分财富都集中于少数人手里，那么这个国家几乎就看不到和谐和稳定。
同样的道理也适用于当前的美国经济。处理美国当前的经济和金融问题，不仅需要看得见的手，也需要看不见的手。
扎卡里亚：我是否可以问您--有些美国人和欧洲人，特别是人权观察人士说，中国在过去的数年里强力压制人权，他们一直希望奥运会能够带来中国的开放，不过它带来的是更多的压制。您如何看待这种观点？
温总理：中国通过主办奥运会，实际上已经变得更加开放。任何不带偏见的人都会看到 --也已经看到这一点。在中国，言论自由和新闻自由得到保障。中共政府重视并保护人权。我们将这些原则写入了中国宪法，我们也认真地执行这一规定。我想对于任何一个政府来说，最重要的是确保其人民享有宪法赋予他们的每项权利。包括生存权、自由权和追求幸福的权利。
我并不认为，我们在人权方面没有缺点。在有些地方有些领域，我们确实存在着这样或那样的问题。然而我们一直不懈努力加以改进，我们希望进一步改善我们国家的人权。
扎卡里亚：来到中国后，我住在一家酒店里。当我在电脑里敲进“天安门广场”这几个字的时候，我遇到了防火墙，有人称其为“中国功夫网”（正式译法为“中国防火墙长城”，此处采取草根译法）。如果没有在互联网上自由搜索信息的权利，那么你能说这是一个先进的社会吗？
温总理：中国现在拥有2亿多互联网用户，许多人、甚至西方也承认中国的网络自由。不过，中国像世界上许多国家一样，为维护国家安全，也采取了一些合理的限制措施。这样做是为了安全，为了国家的整体安全，为了大多数人的自由。
我也可以告诉你，在中国的互联网上，你可以看到许多严厉批评政府的帖子。
我们正是通过浏览互联网上这些批评性的意见，努力找到存在的问题并改进我们的工作。
我认为一个制度或政府不应该畏惧批评性意见或观点。只有关注这些批评，我们才可能进一步改进我们的工作，取得更大的进展。
我经常浏览互联网了解时事。[next]
扎卡里亚：您喜欢哪些网站？
温总理：我浏览了许多网站。
扎卡里亚：诚蒙您的仁慈，我想问您一个世界上很多人都想知道的问题。有一副非常著名的、您1989年在天安门广场的照片。您从处理1989年那一问题上的经历中获得了什么教益？
温总理：我认为，在推动经济改革的同时，我们也需要推动政治改革，因为我们的发展本质上是全面的发展，我们的改革也应当是全面的改革。
我想，你提问的核心是关于中国的民主发展问题。我认为，就中国的民主发展而言，我们有三个领域有待改进：
第一：我们需要渐进地改进我们的民主选举制度，这样国家权力才会真正属于人民，才会服务于人民。
第二：我们需要改进司法制度，依法治国，建设法治国家，而且我们需要有一个独立而公正的司法制度。
第三：政府应当接受人民的监督，这就要求我们，号召我们增强行政事务的透明性。政府接受新闻媒体和其他党派的监督同样是非常必要的。
另外还有一个非常重要的方面，即我们需要考虑中国的国情，我们需要引入适合中国特色的制度，我们需要采取渐进的方法。
扎卡里亚：有人说您正在研究日本的制度，因为日本是民主制度，但只有一个政党可能赢得选举。您认为这种模式适合中国吗？
温总理：我认为世界上有三种民主形式。重要的是民主的内容。这意味着，从根本上来说，民主，重要的是这种民主形式是否真正代表人民的呼声和利益。
我认为，社会主义是一种民主制度。没有民主，就没有社会主义。
这种民主首先应确保人民的民主选举权、监督权和决策权。
这种民主也应当帮助人民在一个自由和平等的环境里实现个人的全面、充分的发展。
这种民主应当建立一个成熟的司法制度之上。否则，就可能产生混乱。这就是我们为什么需要依法治国并保障法律面前人人平等的原因。
扎卡里亚：我们多次谈到选举。您认为25年之后，中国会举行竞争性的全国选举吗？是否有可能出现两个政党竞选像您这样的职位？
温总理：我很难预测25年之后的事情。我相信，中国的民主将继续发展。20-30年之后，整个中国社会将变得更加民主、更加公正，司法制度将进一步改善。我们看到的社会主义将更加成熟并变得更好。
扎卡里亚：温总理，我最后问您两个私人问题。您说您读过很多次马可·奥勒留的著作。奥勒留是一个著名的斯多葛学派哲学家。我读过他这样的话，人不应沉湎于自我，也不应沉湎于自私自利的追求，而应更加关心整个社会。最近我到中国后，我为那里个人主义、消费主义的泛滥感到非常震惊。您是否正向您的国人发出一种信号，让他们少考虑考虑个人，多关心关心社会？
温总理：我确实多次读过马可·奥勒留的《沉思录》，他的文字深深地打动了。书中的那些人物伟大一时。他们现已随风飘逝，只留下一个故事，甚至只留下部分情节。因此，我得出结论：只有人能够创造历史，书写历史。我非常看重道德，我坚信企业家、经济学家和政治家都应多多重视道德和伦理。在我的心目中，正义是衡量伦理和道德的最高标准。当我们思考经济问题时，我们更多地想到公司、资本、市场、技术等等。我们也许忘记了某些方面，比如信仰和道德。只有当我们把这两方面结合起来，我们才能全面破解经济的本源。确实，在中国经济的发展过程中，一些公司以道德为代价追求利益。我们将永远不允许这样的事情发生，因为仅靠这种手段是不能长久的。这就是为什么我们提倡企业道德、职业道德和社会道德。
这就是为什么上午我回答这个问题时，我说我相信经济学家的血管，我们应该看见道德的血液。我们考虑经济问题时，想的较多的是公司、资本、市场和技术等等这些实体因素。我们可能忘记了背后发挥作用的其他因素--这些因素同样受看得见的因素，比如信念和道德的影响。只有当我们把这两种因素结合起来看时，我们才能看到经济DNA的全貌。
当然，在中国的经济发展过程中，有些公司实际上在追求利润的同时抛弃了道德，我们决不会允许这样的事情发生。
我们不会允许以道德沦落为代价发展经济，因为这种方法决不可能长久。
这就是我们为什么提倡企业道德、职业道德和社会道德的原因。
扎卡里亚：阁下，请允许我问您最后一个问题。您肯定一直在关注美国大选。您对我们国家正在进行的这场陌生的竞选和选举有什么样的看法？
温总理：美国的总统选举应当由美国人民来决定。不过我密切关注的是大选之后的中美关系。
近年来，中美关系一直保持良好的发展势头。我们希望，无论什么人当选总统，无论什么人入主白宫，无论哪个党派赢得大选，都能继续发展同中国的关系。无论谁当总统，领导新政府，中国都希望继续推进和发展与美国的关系。
扎卡里亚：乐见其成。谢谢您，总理阁下。我相信您的人担心我们有点儿超时。谢谢您的友善和坦诚。
Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao was interviewed by Fareed Zakaria on "Fareed Zakaria GPS" this weekend
Zakaria: We are now beginning the formal interview, just so everyone realizes.
Wen Jiabao: Before we begin, I would like to let you know that I will use the words from the bottom of my heart to answer your questions, which means that I will tell the truth to all your questions.
I always tell people that sometimes I may not tell what is on my mind, that as long as I speak out what is on my mind, the words are true.
I think you are now interviewing a statesman, and at the same time you are interviewing a statesman in his capacity as a common people.
I prefer dialogue to long-winded speeches, so you can always interrupt me and raise your questions. That would certainly make our dialogue more lively.
Zakaria: I look forward to the chance for this dialogue, and I begin by thanking you for giving us the opportunity and the honor. The first thing I have to ask you, I think is on many people's minds. What do you think of the current financial crisis affecting the United States, and does it make you think that the American model has many flaws in it that we are just recognizing now?
Wen Jiabao: I took office as the Chinese premier six years ago, and before then I was serving as the vice premier of the country. When I was the vice premier, I experienced another financial crisis but in Asia. And in wake of the Asian financial crisis, China adopted a proactive fiscal policy and decided not to devalue the RMB, the Chinese currency, but doing so we managed to overcome the difficulties. But now the problems in the United States started with the subprime crisis and later on, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were involved in the problems, and the Lehman Brothers was in trouble, Merrill Lynch was in trouble, the AIG was in trouble, and such large investment banking companies and insurance companies all encountered systematic problems.
And this has made me feel that this time the crisis that occurred in the United States may have an impact that will affect the whole world. Nonetheless, in face of such a crisis, we must also be aware that today's world is different from the world that people lived in back in the 1930s.
So this time we should join hands and meet the crisis together. If the financial and economic system in the United States go wrong, then the impact will be felt, not only in this country but also in China, in Asia and in the world at large.
I have noted a host of policies and measures adopted by the U.S. government to prevent an isolated crisis from becoming a systematic one, and I hope that measures and steps they have adopted will pay off. I also hope that these measures and steps will not only save some major U.S. financial companies but also help stabilize the U.S. economy and ensure that the U.S. economy will grow on a balanced course.
Zakaria: When you look at your own economy, as you know, there are many people who now say there will be a significant slowdown of the Chinese economy. There are people predicting that Chinese growth rates may slow to as much as 7 percent. Do you think that will happen? And if it does, I wonder, what do you think the consequences will be in China?
Wen Jiabao: Yes, indeed. China's economy has been growing at an annual average rate of 9.6 percent for 30 years running. This is a miracle.
Particularly between the year 2003 and 2007, China had enjoyed a double-digit growth for its economy, and at the same time the CPI grew in for less than 2 percent a year. It is fair to say that China has achieved a fairly fast and steady economic growth.
This time, China has been proactive in adopting regulatory measures. Our previous considerations were to prevent a fast-growing economy from becoming overheated and to prevent the faster soaring prices from becoming obvious inflation. But things have changed very fast, and I refer to the sub-prime crisis in the United States and the serious financial turbulences that follow the sub-prime crisis.
And as a result, we have seen a decline in external demand, and China's domestic demand can hardly be increased in a very significant manner in a short period of time. In this case, it is true that we do have this risk of a slowdown in the Chinese economy.
In this context, we must re-adjust the macroeconomic policy in China in order to adapt ourselves to external changes. What is most important is for us to strike a balance between economic growth, dampening the price rises and bringing inflation under control. And to strike a balance between job creation and dampening inflation and I know it's very, very difficult to strike a balance in all those areas.
We need to adopt a flexible and prudent macroeconomic policy to adapt to external changes in order to ensure very fast and steady economic growth and at the same time keeping inflation down.
Zakaria: Do you think you can continue to grow if the United States goes into a major recession?
Wen Jiabao: In the first half of this year, or given the statistics for the first eight months of this year, we can see that we have managed to do that.
A possible U.S. economic recession will certainly have an impact on the China economy. As we know that 10 years ago, the China-U.S. trade volume stood at only $102.6 billion U.S., while today the figures soar to $302 billion U.S., actually representing an increase of 1.5-fold. A shrinking of U.S. demand will certainly have an impact on China's export.
And the U.S. finance is closely connected with the Chinese finance. If anything goes wrong in the U.S. financial sector, we are anxious about the safety and security of Chinese capital.
That's why in the very beginning I have made it clear that the financial problems in this country not only concerns the interests of the United States but also that of China and the world at large.
Zakaria: There is another sense in which we are interdependent. China is the largest holder of U.S. Treasury bills. By some accounts, they're worth almost $1 trillion. It makes some Americans uneasy. Can you reassure them that China would never use this status as a weapon in some way?
Wen Jiabao: As I said, we believe that the U.S. real economy is still solidly based. Particularly the high-tech industries and the basic industries. Now, something has gone wrong in the virtual economy, but if this problem is properly addressed, then it is still possible to stabilize the economy in this country.
The Chinese government hopes very much that the U.S. side will be able to stabilize its economy and finance as quickly as possible, and we also hope to see sustained development in the United States as that will benefit China.
Of course, we are concerned about the safety and security of Chinese money here. But we believe that the United States is a credible country and particularly at such difficult times, China has reached out to the United States.
And actually we believe such a helping hand will help stabilize the entire global economy and finance and to prevent a major chaos from occurring in the global economic and financial system. I believe now cooperation is everything.
Zakaria: May I ask you about China's role in a broader sense? Many people see China as a superpower already, and they wonder: why is it not being more active in political resolution of issues such as the issue of Darfur or the issue of Iran and its nuclear ambitions?
There is a hope that China will play a role as a responsible stakeholder, to use Robert Zoellick's phrase when he was deputy secretary of state, and that China will be more active in managing the political problems in the world, and that so far it has not been active. How would you react to that?
Wen Jiabao: To answer this question, I need to correct some of the elements in your question first. China is NOT a superpower. Although China has a population of 1.3 billion and although in recent years China has registered fairly fast economic and social development since reform and opening up, China still has this problem of unbalanced development between different regions and between China's urban and rural areas. China remains a developing country.
We still have 800 million farmers in rural areas, and we still have dozens of million people living in poverty. As a matter of fact, over 60 million people in rural and urban areas in China still live on allowances for basic living costs in my country. And each year, we need to take care of about 23 million unemployed in urban areas and about 200 million farmers come and go to cities to find jobs in China. We need to make committed and very earnest efforts to address all these problems.
To address our own problems, we need to do a great deal. China is not a superpower. That's why we need to focus on our own development and on our efforts to improve people's lives.
Zakaria: But surely the Chinese government could pressure the Sudanese government or the Iranian government or the government in Burma to be less repressive. You have relations with all three of them.
Wen Jiabao: That brings me to your second question. Actually in the international community, China is a justice-upholding country. We never trade our principles.
Take the Darfur issue that you raised just now for example. China has always advocated that we need to adopt a dual-track approach to seek a solution to the Darfur issue. China was among the first countries sending peace-keepers to Darfur.
China was also the first country that gave assistance to Sudan and we also keep our efforts to engage the leaders in Sudan to try to seek a peaceful solution to the issue as quickly as possible.
Zakaria: Do you think it would be dangerous for the world if Iran got nuclear weapons? And what do you think the world should do to try to stop that possibility?
Wen Jiabao: We are not supportive of a nuclear rise to Iran. We believe that Iran has the right to develop a utilization of nuclear energy in a peaceful way. But such efforts should be subject to the safeguards of the [International Atomic Energy Agency], and Iran should not develop nuclear weapons. As far as the Iranian nuclear issue is concerned, China's stance is clear-cut.
We hope that through promoting the talks concerning this issue, that we will be able to encourage the Iranian authorities to give up any idea to develop nuclear weapons and accept IAEA safeguards.
Nonetheless, we hope that we can use peaceful talks to achieve the purpose, rather than resort to the willful use of force or the intimidation of force. It's like treating the relationship between two individuals. If one individual tries to corner the other, then the effect will be counterproductive. That will do nothing in helping resolve the problem. Our purpose is to resolve the problem, not to escalate tensions.
And I also have a question for you: Don't you think that the efforts made by China in resolving the Korean nuclear issue and position we have adopted in this regard have actually helped the situation on the Korean peninsula move for the better day by day? And, of course, I know that it still takes time to seek a thorough and complete solution to the Korean nuclear issue, and on that basis to help put in place the security and stability in Northeast Asia. But, what I'd like to stress is that the model that we have adopted, and the efforts we have made, prove to be right in this, in this direction.
Zakaria: Since you honored me by asking the question, I will say to you, premier, that China's efforts in North Korea have been appreciated in the United States and around the world. And of course it makes people wish that China would be active in other areas in just the same productive way that it was in North Korea because we see that it produces results.
Wen Jiabao: We have gained a lot of experience and learned lessons from years of negotiations concerning the six-party talks, and the progress made in the six-party talks also has a lot to do with the close cooperation among the six parties.
Zakaria: May I ask you about another set of possible talks? The Dalai Lama has said now it appears that he would accept China's rule in Tibet, he accepts the socialist system in Tibet, and what he asks for is cultural autonomy and a certain degree of political autonomy. The talks apparently are stuck at a lower level between the Tibetans and the Chinese government. Why don't you, given your power and your negotiating skills, take the issue yourself -- and you or President Hu Jintao would negotiate directly with the Dalai Lama and solve this issue once and for all for the benefit of the Chinese people, and of course the Tibetan people who are also in China?
Wen Jiabao: Our issue with the Dalai Lama is not an ethnic, religious or cultural issue in the ordinary sense. It's a major principled issue concerning safeguarding the country's unity or allowing efforts to separate a country. And we must adopt a two-pronged approach in viewing the Dalai Lama. On one hand, it is true that the Dalai is a religious leader, and he enjoys certain influence in the Tibetan region, and particularly in regions that the inhabitants believe in Buddhism. And, on the other hand, we must also be aware that he is not an ordinary religious figure. The so-called government in exile founded by the Dalai Lama practices a theocratic rule. And the purpose of this so-called government in exile is to separate Tibet from China.
In many places all over the world, the Dalai Lama keeps preaching about the idea of a so-called autonomy in the greater Tibetan region. And actually, the so-called autonomy that he pursues is actually to use religion to intervene in politics. They want to separate the so-called greater Tibetan region from the motherland. And many people in the United States have no idea how big is the so-called greater Tibetan region, the so-called greater Tibetan region, preached by the Dalai Lama, actually covers Tibet, Sichuan, Yunnan, Qinghai and Gansu -- altogether five provinces. And the area covered by the so-called greater Tibetan region accounts for a quarter of China's territory.
For decades, our policy towards the Dalai Lama remains unchanged: that is, as long as the Dalai Lama is willing to recognize that Tibet is an inalienable part of China's territory, and as long as the Dalai Lama gives up his separatist activities, we're willing to have contact and talks with him or his representatives.
Now, sincerity holds the key to producing result out of the talks. After the Tibet incident back in the 1950's, the highest leader of the central government, Mr. Deng Xiaoping, also met the representatives of the Dalai Lama.
So, I don't think there is this problem, as whether I can have contact with the Dalai Lama. The real key lies in the effectiveness of such contact and talks.
We hope that he can use real actions to show sincerity and break the deadlock.
Zakaria: What action would you like to see from the Dalai Lama that would show sincerity?
Wen Jiabao: Actually, I already made it clear that when we observe any individual, the Dalai Lama included, we should not only watch what, we should not only observe what he says, but also watch what he does.
His sincerity can be demonstrated in giving up separatist activities.
Zakaria: And then you might meet with him?
Wen Jiabao: By then, everything depends on the development of the situation. Of course, talks may continue, and in light of the progress in the talks, we may also consider raising the level of the talks.
Zakaria: Premier Wen, your country has grown, as you pointed out, 9½ percent for 30 years -- fastest growth rate of any country in history. If people come to you and say to you, "What is the Chinese model of succeeding as a developing country?" What would you say? What is the key to your success? What is the model?
Wen Jiabao: It's easy to answer this question, that you may think about this thing -- that about 30 years ago, why China was not able to grow as fast as it has in the following years. I think this is attributable to the reforms and opening up a policy we introduced in 1978. This holds the key to China's success. By introducing reform and opening up, we have greatly emancipated productivity in China.
We have one important thought: that socialism can also practice market economy.
Zakaria: People think that's a contradiction. You have the market economy, where the market allocates resources, and in socialism, it's all central planning. How do you make both work?
Wen Jiabao: The complete formulation of our economic policy is to give full play to the basic role of market forces in allocating resources under the macroeconomic guidance and regulation of the government.
We have one important piece of experience of the past 30 years: that is to ensure that both the visible hand and the invisible hand are given full play in regulating the market forces.
If you are familiar with the classical works of Adam Smith, you will know that there are two famous works of his. One is "The Wealth of Nations"; the other is the book on the morality and ethics. And, "The Wealth of Nations" deals more with the invisible hand that are the market forces. And the other book deals with social equity and justice. And in the other book he wrote, he stressed the importance of playing the regulatory role of the government to further distribute the wealth among the people.
If in a country, most of the wealth is concentrated in the hands of the few, then this country can hardly witness harmony and stability.
The same approach also applies to the current U.S. economy. To address the current economic and financial problems in this country, we need to apply not only the visible hand but also the invisible hand.
Zakaria: May I ask you -- some Americans and Europeans, particularly human rights observers, say that China has cracked down on human rights over the last few years, that they had been hoping that the Olympics would lead to an opening of China, but that it has, there has been more repression. How would you respond to that?
Wen Jiabao: By hosting the Olympic Games, China has actually become more open. Anyone without biases will see -- have seen that. In the freedom of speech and the freedom in news media coverage are guaranteed in China. The Chinese government attaches importance to, and protects, human rights. We have incorporated these lines into the Chinese constitution, and we also implement the stipulation in real earnest. I think for any government, what is most important, is to ensure that its people enjoy each and every right given to them by the constitution.
Including their right to survival, freedom and to pursue their happiness.
We don't think that we are impeccable in terms of human rights. It is true that in some places and in some areas, we do have problems of this kind or that kind. Nonetheless, we are continuing to make efforts to make improvements, and we want to further improve human rights in our country.
Zakaria: When I go to China and I'm in a hotel and I type in the words Tiananmen Square in my computer, I get a firewall, what some people call the Great Firewall of China. Can you be an advanced society if you don't have freedom of information to find out information on the Internet?
Wen Jiabao: China now has over 200 million Internet users, and the freedom of Internet in China is recognized by many, even from the west. Nonetheless, to uphold state security, China, like many countries in the world, has also imposed some proper restrictions. That is for the safety, that is for the overall safety of the country and for the freedom of the majority of the people.
I can also tell you on the Internet in China, you can have access to a lot of postings that are quite critical about the government.
It is exactly through reading these critical opinions on the Internet that we try to locate problems and further improve our work.
I don't think a system or a government should fear critical opinions or views. Only by heeding those critical views would it be possible for us to further improve our work and make further progress.
I frequently browse the Internet to learn about a situation.
Zakaria: What are your favorite sites?
Wen Jiabao: I've browsed a lot of Internet Web sites.
Zakaria: I will take advantage of your kindness and ask you a question that many people around the world wonder about. There is a very famous photograph of you at Tiananmen square in 1989. What lesson did you take from your experiences in dealing with that problem in 1989?
Wen Jiabao: I believe that while moving ahead with economic reforms, we also need to advance political reforms, as our development is comprehensive in nature, our reform should also be comprehensive.
I think the core of your question is about the development of democracy in China. I believe when it comes to the development of democracy in China, we talk about progress to be made in three areas:
No. 1: We need to gradually improve the democratic election system so that state power will truly belong to the people and state power will be used to serve the people
No. 2: We need to improve the legal system, run the country according to law, and establish the country under the rule of law and we need to view an independent and just judicial system.
No. 3: Government should be subject to oversight by the people and that will ask us, call on us to increase transparency in government affairs and particularly it is also necessary for government to accept oversight by the news media and other parties.
There is also another important aspect that when it comes to development of democracy in China, we need to take into account China's national conditions, and we need to introduce a system that suits China's special features, and we need to introduce a gradual approach.
Zakaria: People say you're studying the Japanese system because there's democracy but there's only one party that seems to win the elections. Is that the kind of model you see for China?
Wen Jiabao: I think there are multiple forms of democracy in the world. What is important is the substance of democracy.
Which means that at the end of the day, what is important about democracy is that whether such form of democracy can really represent the calling and interest of the people.
Socialism as I understand it is a system of democracy. Without democracy, there is no socialism.
And such a democracy first and foremost should serve to ensure people's right to democratic elections, oversight and decision making.
Such a democracy should also help people to fully develop themselves in an all-around way in an environment featuring freedom and equality.
And such a democracy should be based on a full-fledged legal system. Otherwise, there would be chaos. That's why we need to run the country according to law and ensure that everyone is equal under the law.
Zakaria: We've talked about elections many times. Do you think in 25 years there will be national elections in which there will be a competition, there will be perhaps two parties, that will be running for a position such as your own?
Wen Jiabao: It's hard for me to predict what will happen in 25 years time. This being said, I have this conviction -- that China's democracy will continue to grow. In 20 to 30 years time, the whole Chinese society will be more democratic and fairer, and the legal system in China will further be improved. The socialism as we see it will further mature and improve.
Zakaria: Let me ask you, premier, finally a couple of questions that are personal. You've said that you've read the works of Marcus Aurelius a hundred times. Marcus Aurelius is a famous stoic philosopher. My reading of him says that one should not be involved in the self, and in any kind of pursuits that are self-interested but should be more for the community as a whole. When I go to China these days, I am struck by how much individualism there is, how much consumerism there is. Are you trying to send a signal to the Chinese people to think less about themselves and more about the community?
Wen Jiabao: It is true I did read the meditations written by Marcus Aurelius Antonio on many occasions, and I was very deeply impressed by the words that he wrote in the book -- to be fact - where are those people that were great for a time? They are all gone, leaving only a story, or some even just half a story. So I draw the conclusion that only people are in the position to create history and write history.
I very much value morality, and I do believe that entrepreneurs, economists and statesmen alike should pay much more attention to morality and ethics.
In my mind, the highest standard to measure the ethics and morality is justice.
That's why in the morning when I answered the question, I said that I believe in the veins of the economist, we should see the blood of morality.
When we think about economy, we think more about the real elements concerning the company, the capital, the market, the technology, so on and so forth. And we might forget about the other sort of elements that work behind the scene, and these factors are also affected by the visible factors like conviction and morality. Only when we combine these two kinds of factors, can we put in place a full picture of the DNA of the economy.
It is true in the course of China's economic development, some companies have actually pursued their profits at the expense of morality and we will never allow such things to happen.
We will not allow economic growth at the expense of the loss of morality because such approach simply can not sustain.
That's why we advocate the corporate, occupational and social ethics.
Zakaria: Let me ask you a final question, your excellency. You must have been watching the American election. What is your reaction to the strange race and election that we are having in this country?
Wen Jiabao: The presidential election of the United States should be decided by the American people. But what I follow very closely is the relationship between China and the United States after the election.
In recent years, there has been a sound growth momentum in the growth of China-U.S. relations. And we hope, and whoever is elected as the president and whoever is sworn in into the White House, no matter which party wins the election, that he or she and the parties will continue to grow the relationship with China. And China hopes to continue to improve and grow its relationship with the United States no matter who will take office and lead the new administration in this country.
Zakaria: On that happy note, I thank you, your excellency. I'm sure your people are worried we took a little extra time. And I thank you in advance for your kindness and your frankness.
